Scott Barry Kaufman and Sarah Lewis approach the concept of creativity in distinct ways. Kaufman, a cognitive psychologist, studies the science and psychology behind creativity—and proposes new ways to measure it—in his book Wired to Create. Sarah Lewis, Harvard professor of Art History, Architecture, and American and African American Studies, based her book The Rise: Creativity, the Gift of Failure, and the Search for Mastery, on extensive research about specific artists’ lifestyles and careers. They recently got on the phone to discuss what makes an artist an artist, and what some of the world’s most brilliant creative minds–from Einstein to Cézanne—have in common. Check out their conversation (edited for clarity) below.